So Close!...
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@SpookDog Well it's not stock is it. I'm running a ported Athena 170 kit, with aftermarket radiators and waterless coolant (notorious for raising the temperature). It would benefit from a lower temperature thermostat then it would be grand, but as it is it just takes a while to warm up.
Worst temp I had was when I was running lean, was using jets for my year bike, not the year carb. As soon as I upped the mixture it was fine…
Two strokes are still mysterious to me
…I don’t think a lower thermostat wouldn’t solve anything (a working one would if the previous was bust). If the radiator (or 2 in your case?) isn’t dissipating the amount of heat generated in the cylinder, then the coolant temp will keep rising until it reaches the equilibrium that the rad can dispel.
Bigger, tuned engines don’t produce higher temps, just more BTU’s~heat…
Does that make sense?… -
Worst temp I had was when I was running lean, was using jets for my year bike, not the year carb. As soon as I upped the mixture it was fine…
Two strokes are still mysterious to me …I don’t think a lower thermostat wouldn’t solve anything (a working one would if the previous was bust). If the radiator (or 2 in your case?) isn’t dissipating the amount of heat generated in the cylinder, then the coolant temp will keep rising until it reaches the equilibrium that the rad can dispel.
Bigger, tuned engines don’t produce higher temps, just more BTU’s~heat…
Does that make sense?…@SpookDog Right, so if the engines producing more heat and the cooling isn't adjusted then it'll run hotter. I am running significantly more power than stock probably an extra 50% over the stock power. Plus the bike is a lot heavier than stock with the ally wheels and USDs.
A lower thermostat would definitely help, it's quite common on tuned cars to run lower temp stats to enable the cooling system to function correctly.
Since removing the stat the bike equalises perfectly at 60 degrees, just takes a while to get there.
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@SpookDog Right, so if the engines producing more heat and the cooling isn't adjusted then it'll run hotter. I am running significantly more power than stock probably an extra 50% over the stock power. Plus the bike is a lot heavier than stock with the ally wheels and USDs.
A lower thermostat would definitely help, it's quite common on tuned cars to run lower temp stats to enable the cooling system to function correctly.
Since removing the stat the bike equalises perfectly at 60 degrees, just takes a while to get there.
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@ the right temp? It’s 65 iirc, (I learnt from you
) it’s no good if it opens @ 100•cCleaned out the carb and found bubbles of water still present in the bowl and around the main jet. Power is back to ‘normal’ though it still doesn’t want to rev freely up to and beyond 7K. I’ve got a few plans forming in mind, including swapping out another CDI I gotten (wish the original fitted had markings!) unplugging and ‘pinning’ the power valve to see if there’s a difference…
I’m really not sure about the crank after 20,000 miles of riding while missing at low throttle. The bearings are ok but that doesn’t mean that the Conrod is true…
I do have another good crank and casings, ect that I’ve been planning on building a ‘new’ bottom end lump. I just need to be able to focus on it without other problems stacking up 🫠
Remember to check the power valve servo closer, it appears to be opening at 7000 . But could be higher…
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@ the right temp? It’s 65 iirc, (I learnt from you
) it’s no good if it opens @ 100•c@SpookDog From the digital readout it was reaching about 85 degrees then cooling down to 80 then spiking. So it would fluctuate around 80-85. But one day I made it literally a mile after leaving home and it went to 110. So I turned back and removed it and its been perfect ever since. Just takes a while to warm up.
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@SpookDog From the digital readout it was reaching about 85 degrees then cooling down to 80 then spiking. So it would fluctuate around 80-85. But one day I made it literally a mile after leaving home and it went to 110. So I turned back and removed it and its been perfect ever since. Just takes a while to warm up.
80-85 is the absolute wide open temp isn’t it it should open at 60-5. Definitely sounds like the stat failed to me, especially if removing it solved the problem. I’ve got a couple known good spares if you want to try one before paying out for something you think might not work…
Is your temp probe on the head or radiator or?
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80-85 is the absolute wide open temp isn’t it it should open at 60-5. Definitely sounds like the stat failed to me, especially if removing it solved the problem. I’ve got a couple known good spares if you want to try one before paying out for something you think might not work…
Is your temp probe on the head or radiator or?
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@SpookDog I have a few thermostats lying around. As I say I tested it in the stove and it opens and closes fine, but don't know the temperature.
The temperature is measured at the head with a digital read out.
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Best (I recon!) way to do it is in a pan of water gently/gradually brought up to temp with a thermometer in the water right next to the thermostat (suspended in the water with wire)…
Remember to remove flywheel cover and check rotation for any play/noise at TDC or during rotation. A random tapping/knocking noise has appeared during tick over since removing the oil pump/replacing clutch side main seal. Or since water in carb cut out episode…
Also fit rubber mounts and P clip mount to exhaust…
PS remember to turn off the lights when adjusting the carb, the drag caused by them is significant…
PPS didn’t remove the oil pump!!
Piston was a tight good fit when assembled. Am getting Tappety sound at TDC when turning flywheel by hand. Will check more through the exhaust outlet when pipes off for rubber mounting… -
Cleaned out the carb and found bubbles of water still present in the bowl and around the main jet. Power is back to ‘normal’ though it still doesn’t want to rev freely up to and beyond 7K. I’ve got a few plans forming in mind, including swapping out another CDI I gotten (wish the original fitted had markings!) unplugging and ‘pinning’ the power valve to see if there’s a difference…
I’m really not sure about the crank after 20,000 miles of riding while missing at low throttle. The bearings are ok but that doesn’t mean that the Conrod is true…
I do have another good crank and casings, ect that I’ve been planning on building a ‘new’ bottom end lump. I just need to be able to focus on it without other problems stacking up 🫠
Remember to check the power valve servo closer, it appears to be opening at 7000 . But could be higher…
@SpookDog said in So Close!...:
Cleaned out the carb and found bubbles of water still present in the bowl and around the main jet. Power is back to ‘normal’ though it still doesn’t want to rev freely up to and beyond 7K. I’ve got a few plans forming in mind, including swapping out another CDI I gotten (wish the original fitted had markings!) unplugging and ‘pinning’ the power valve to see if there’s a difference…
I’m really not sure about the crank after 20,000 miles of riding while missing at low throttle. The bearings are ok but that doesn’t mean that the Conrod is true…
I do have another good crank and casings, ect that I’ve been planning on building a ‘new’ bottom end lump. I just need to be able to focus on it without other problems stacking up 🫠
Remember to check the power valve servo closer, it appears to be opening at 7000 . But could be higher…
I saw you post and recently had a similar problem developed in my bike,remove your spark plug and test by touching somewhere on the engine,healthy spark is orange in color,mine was lighlty blue to white.Changed the ignition coil with a used working genuine one.Run's fine now.
My sympton's was hesitation to rev after 6-7k but was clearing and had full power after around 9k.It'looked like a carb problem and did 2 rebuilds with different jets.Sometimes had misfires but not at the same rpm's. -
@SpookDog said in So Close!...:
Cleaned out the carb and found bubbles of water still present in the bowl and around the main jet. Power is back to ‘normal’ though it still doesn’t want to rev freely up to and beyond 7K. I’ve got a few plans forming in mind, including swapping out another CDI I gotten (wish the original fitted had markings!) unplugging and ‘pinning’ the power valve to see if there’s a difference…
I’m really not sure about the crank after 20,000 miles of riding while missing at low throttle. The bearings are ok but that doesn’t mean that the Conrod is true…
I do have another good crank and casings, ect that I’ve been planning on building a ‘new’ bottom end lump. I just need to be able to focus on it without other problems stacking up 🫠
Remember to check the power valve servo closer, it appears to be opening at 7000 . But could be higher…
I saw you post and recently had a similar problem developed in my bike,remove your spark plug and test by touching somewhere on the engine,healthy spark is orange in color,mine was lighlty blue to white.Changed the ignition coil with a used working genuine one.Run's fine now.
My sympton's was hesitation to rev after 6-7k but was clearing and had full power after around 9k.It'looked like a carb problem and did 2 rebuilds with different jets.Sometimes had misfires but not at the same rpm's.Cheers bud, I will check it out…
Does anyone know how to find the CDI markings numbers to year? I’m sure I saw a page once that listed all the years of CDI and when they changed by their marked numbers. Also which ones were the least restricted? Any help is appreciated
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Cheers bud, I will check it out…
Does anyone know how to find the CDI markings numbers to year? I’m sure I saw a page once that listed all the years of CDI and when they changed by their marked numbers. Also which ones were the least restricted? Any help is appreciated
…@SpookDog said in So Close!...:
Cheers bud, I will check it out…
Does anyone know how to find the CDI markings numbers to year? I’m sure I saw a page once that listed all the years of CDI and when they changed by their marked numbers. Also which ones were the least restricted? Any help is appreciated
…CDI 3NC no restriction,I ve revved up to 13500rpm on the road.
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@SpookDog said in So Close!...:
Cheers bud, I will check it out…
Does anyone know how to find the CDI markings numbers to year? I’m sure I saw a page once that listed all the years of CDI and when they changed by their marked numbers. Also which ones were the least restricted? Any help is appreciated
…CDI 3NC no restriction,I ve revved up to 13500rpm on the road.
Really? What year bike? Mines a late 1988 (28mm flatslide) that came without the servo (3 wire) I’d like to know what I should have or can use. My CDI has no marking. I think I can use any 3 wire servo-CDI, but: Nothing is ever easy!
I’ve actually got a 3nc-00 93n CDI I brought for £25-30 off of fleabay. Has 10 (or 11 counting looped black wire) wires, just checked it out! I only hope it works!…
Got a 4hw CDI as well… -
Really? What year bike? Mines a late 1988 (28mm flatslide) that came without the servo (3 wire) I’d like to know what I should have or can use. My CDI has no marking. I think I can use any 3 wire servo-CDI, but: Nothing is ever easy!
I’ve actually got a 3nc-00 93n CDI I brought for £25-30 off of fleabay. Has 10 (or 11 counting looped black wire) wires, just checked it out! I only hope it works!…
Got a 4hw CDI as well…@SpookDog said in So Close!...:
Really? What year bike? Mines a late 1988 (28mm flatslide) that came without the servo (3 wire) I’d like to know what I should have or can use. My CDI has no marking. I think I can use any 3 wire servo-CDI, but: Nothing is ever easy!
I’ve actually got a 3nc-00 93n CDI I brought for £25-30 off of fleabay. Has 10 (or 11 counting looped black wire) wires, just checked it out! I only hope it works!…
Got a 4hw CDI as well…It's a 1990 model as far as I found,3 wire servo, 3NC-00 cdi,28mm flatside carb.Registered here in Greece at 1993 but came as a used bike from another country,not European.Although it says 4BL on the frame.
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@SpookDog said in So Close!...:
Really? What year bike? Mines a late 1988 (28mm flatslide) that came without the servo (3 wire) I’d like to know what I should have or can use. My CDI has no marking. I think I can use any 3 wire servo-CDI, but: Nothing is ever easy!
I’ve actually got a 3nc-00 93n CDI I brought for £25-30 off of fleabay. Has 10 (or 11 counting looped black wire) wires, just checked it out! I only hope it works!…
Got a 4hw CDI as well…It's a 1990 model as far as I found,3 wire servo, 3NC-00 cdi,28mm flatside carb.Registered here in Greece at 1993 but came as a used bike from another country,not European.Although it says 4BL on the frame.
@MadGyver
Thank you bud! That’s the best info I’ve been able to find about early dtr RPMs’ and I’ve been searching! …IMO, My bike feels like it’s reaching its max rpm with the valve closed before the the servo opens up. I’m thinking that if the servo opened 1000rpm earlier it would be a smooth transition. I could well be wrong though!
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@MadGyver
Thank you bud! That’s the best info I’ve been able to find about early dtr RPMs’ and I’ve been searching! …IMO, My bike feels like it’s reaching its max rpm with the valve closed before the the servo opens up. I’m thinking that if the servo opened 1000rpm earlier it would be a smooth transition. I could well be wrong though!
…@SpookDog said in So Close!...:
@MadGyver
Thank you bud! That’s the best info I’ve been able to find about early dtr RPMs’ and I’ve been searching! …IMO, My bike feels like it’s reaching its max rpm with the valve closed before the the servo opens up. I’m thinking that if the servo opened 1000rpm earlier it would be a smooth transition. I could well be wrong though!
…For smoother operation search also the reed valve major component for that,see at my project topic for some info,down to the last posts.
My bike was very ok until 8K but after that was explosive almost burnt my clutch disks.It revved really hard and instantly to the 12K with the boyesen dual stage. -
@SpookDog said in So Close!...:
@MadGyver
Thank you bud! That’s the best info I’ve been able to find about early dtr RPMs’ and I’ve been searching! …IMO, My bike feels like it’s reaching its max rpm with the valve closed before the the servo opens up. I’m thinking that if the servo opened 1000rpm earlier it would be a smooth transition. I could well be wrong though!
…For smoother operation search also the reed valve major component for that,see at my project topic for some info,down to the last posts.
My bike was very ok until 8K but after that was explosive almost burnt my clutch disks.It revved really hard and instantly to the 12K with the boyesen dual stage.@MadGyver
Cheers bud, will do…One thing I’ve noticed with the stainless steel exhaust is it kinda ‘rings’ at certain revs, like a bell. It’s quite strange to get used to. I thought it was engine noise at first…
Anyone else get that with HR or other stainless pipes?…PS another question: does the CDI tell the power valve when to open? Or does it just provide RPM info and the servo is hard wired to open at a certain RPM? This is 3 wire servo’s only. I understand that dtre 5 wire servo’s can be programmed if you have the right aftermarket ignition system, but doubt it’s relevant to early, pre 1996 models…
PPS is there a manual for after 1993 TZRs? I have a Mikuni 28 flatslide (Yamaha, with the 12*deg slant & coolant pipes) that has different 1mm cutaway slide, needle jet & tube, ect, internal setup. I was told it was from a 4dl iirc, but I’d like to learn more about it properly…
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@MadGyver
Cheers bud, will do…One thing I’ve noticed with the stainless steel exhaust is it kinda ‘rings’ at certain revs, like a bell. It’s quite strange to get used to. I thought it was engine noise at first…
Anyone else get that with HR or other stainless pipes?…PS another question: does the CDI tell the power valve when to open? Or does it just provide RPM info and the servo is hard wired to open at a certain RPM? This is 3 wire servo’s only. I understand that dtre 5 wire servo’s can be programmed if you have the right aftermarket ignition system, but doubt it’s relevant to early, pre 1996 models…
PPS is there a manual for after 1993 TZRs? I have a Mikuni 28 flatslide (Yamaha, with the 12*deg slant & coolant pipes) that has different 1mm cutaway slide, needle jet & tube, ect, internal setup. I was told it was from a 4dl iirc, but I’d like to learn more about it properly…
@SpookDog said in So Close!...:
PS another question: does the CDI tell the power valve when to open? Or does it just provide RPM info and the servo is hard wired to open at a certain RPM? This is 3 wire servo’s only. I understand that dtre 5 wire servo’s can be programmed if you have the right aftermarket ignition system, but doubt it’s relevant to early, pre 1996 models…
On 3-wire servo systems (3BN, 3NC and 3MB) the CDI just sends engine speed information to the servo via the black/yellow wire (i.e it pulses once per crank revolution like the crank sensor on a car). Inside the 3-wire servo there's a small onboard computer (just a PCB) which interprets this and decides how far the valve should open at a given engine speed. This is the reason the 3-wire DTR servos are so expensive and difficult to find (IIRC almost every other YPVS- and EXUP-equipped Yamaha runs on the 5-wire servo system where the CDI takes care of all this and the servo is just a servo like the ones you get on a radio-controlled model).
I once bought a 3NC where the 3-wire servo did its cleaning cycle when switching on the ignition, but didn't respond to engine speed; a replacement servo cured it meaning the PCB has two separate circuits, one for the cleaning cycle and one for engine speed. If you apply 12v to the black and brown wires with the 3-wire servo removed from the bike altogether, it still performs its cleaning cycle (brown is +ve main feed from the ignition switch on Yamahas). I once watched a Suzuki mechanic use a piece of test equipment to simulate an RGV250 revving to over 14000rpm to test powervalve operation (the electronic tacho was displaying the rpm and the plugs were sparking and everything even though it wasn't actually running). Zeeltronic ignitions come wired for either 3- or 5-wire servos; they advise running a 5-wire because it's more tuneable. There's also a guide on their site showing how to turn a 3-wire servo into a 5-wire (this allows you to remove and store the PCB and return the servo to a 3-wire if you ever want to go back to the stock CDI).
Not sure about the CDI for the earlier round slide carb '88 bikes (I think they're etched 3BD but I've never seen one) but the flat slide carb 3-wire servo CDI units are either 3NC or 3MB and the wiring is:
3NC
Black/yellow female bullet
Blue/yellow female bullet
Black/white female bullet
Orange female spade
Blue and sky blue female 2-pin connector
Black and white/red female 2-pin connector
Black/red and green/white male 2-pin connector3MB
Black/yellow female bullet
Blue/yellow female bullet
Black/white female bullet
Orange female spade
Blue male bullet
Black male bullet (2 black wires into one terminal)
Black and white/red female 2-pin connector
Black/red and green/white male 2-pin connector3NC and 3MB engines are mechanically identical, both should rev to around 10.5k stock but I found the 3MB to have a lot more power at the same engine speeds; the 3NC still went well, was fun to ride, revved out OK etc. but there's certain places on my regular rides (steep hills etc.) where the 3MB just keeps revving whilst the 3NC runs out of puff leading me to suspect the 3MB ignition advance curve is different. Unfortunately 3NC and 3MB looms are also different meaning you can't just bung a 3MB CDI on a 3NC bike (hence my decision to opt for the Zeeltronic/5-wire servo setup on my 3NC which has now been sold).
This could be for a number of reasons; my 3MB is the highest mileage DTR anyone has ever seen with nearly 70,000km of Paris commuting racked up but when I replaced the head gasket not long after buying it I measured the bore to be standard 56mm leading me to suspect the previous owner had the engine rebuilt (possibly with a non-OEM head gasket) just before selling it after umpteen rebores. And interestingly I changed the head from a 3BN to a 3MB at the same time and it made no difference (i.e it was fast even with a 3BN head). But I've owned two sub-6000 mile French import 3NCs (a '93 and a '98) and they both felt exactly the same. And all three bikes ran stock jetting (including having the power jet connected) according to the Yamaha France parts lookup where you enter your VIN number and they tell you the jet sizes for that particular bike by part number.
