What was I thinking!…
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The single sided lug…
Clutch side…
Flywheel side…
Non of the other 4hw engines I’ve found pics of have bushes fitted either. There are no obvious marks where bushes or insets have sat before, but you can see the‘shadow’ where a bolt was fitted on the other side of the lug…
Oh well, that explains it! I mock fitted an old 4bl casing which has the same dimensions as the 4hw lump…
They aren’t meant to line up…
It was never meant to have a lower mount, it looks like the exhaust hanger lug!
…Oh well! At least I can put that mystery to bed and move on
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Oh well, that explains it! I mock fitted an old 4bl casing which has the same dimensions as the 4hw lump…
They aren’t meant to line up…
It was never meant to have a lower mount, it looks like the exhaust hanger lug!
…Oh well! At least I can put that mystery to bed and move on
…I really need to find 3XV, 4HW or 4FL plastics. Seat bits, main~side fairings and centre V bit are the main suspects…
Any tips on Japanese auction sites, ect would be very sweet. I’m really not very good at finding this kinda obsolete stuff. Any help or advice would be well appreciated … -
I really need to find 3XV, 4HW or 4FL plastics. Seat bits, main~side fairings and centre V bit are the main suspects…
Any tips on Japanese auction sites, ect would be very sweet. I’m really not very good at finding this kinda obsolete stuff. Any help or advice would be well appreciated …Is there any realistic way of cleaning debris out of around the crank and bearings without splitting the cases? I have no idea how many years the lump has been laying around with no top end on it. It was deep in oil and ‘plugged’ by the previous, but I’m leery of it cause there was visible sand/grit …
I’ve washed it out with very oily petrol (2T) and there are no grit noises… -
Is there any realistic way of cleaning debris out of around the crank and bearings without splitting the cases? I have no idea how many years the lump has been laying around with no top end on it. It was deep in oil and ‘plugged’ by the previous, but I’m leery of it cause there was visible sand/grit …
I’ve washed it out with very oily petrol (2T) and there are no grit noises… -
Ok ignore that. I’ve got gear oil coming out of the coolant duct:
Gonna have to split it to investigate
Just whipped of the pump cover and oil has filled up in there. Hopefully past the seal!
…Edit:
Removed the clutch casing.
The gasket is perfect. I’m gonna check out the pump seal next. I can’t imagine oil getting past it but this motor might of been sitting for 10 years for all I know. There was oil in the impeller anyways…PS any tip on removing the water pump seal? She doesn’t want to move
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Managed to clean out the crank, bearings & casing by using my Wurth degreasant pump up spray bottle. Filled it with heavily 2T’d petrol, angled the lump up on wooden blocks, and flushed out the whole lot with a steady stream while gently rotating the crank. I made sure the gearbox bearings were oiled. It turns over very quietly with my little finger in the little end of the conrod…
I’m happy with it… -
Managed to clean out the crank, bearings & casing by using my Wurth degreasant pump up spray bottle. Filled it with heavily 2T’d petrol, angled the lump up on wooden blocks, and flushed out the whole lot with a steady stream while gently rotating the crank. I made sure the gearbox bearings were oiled. It turns over very quietly with my little finger in the little end of the conrod…
I’m happy with it… -
There’s a 32mm vhsa dellorto on fleabay for £75
What do you think?
Item number:
275975473343@SpookDog Looks good but what carb do you have on it now? And you'll need to sort some jets for it as the seller says they're missing.
Can't remember whether yours is a normal UK TZR125R or an Italian market Belgarda, I think the UK ones had a TM28SS similar to the DTR and the Belgarda had the Dell'Orto. There could be differences in the CDI and pipe as well.
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@SpookDog Looks good but what carb do you have on it now? And you'll need to sort some jets for it as the seller says they're missing.
Can't remember whether yours is a normal UK TZR125R or an Italian market Belgarda, I think the UK ones had a TM28SS similar to the DTR and the Belgarda had the Dell'Orto. There could be differences in the CDI and pipe as well.
It’s a UK 1994 Tzr125rr (4hw) it was a small production number 125 model that used the frame from a 3xv Tzr250rr. It doesn’t have the belgarda Alu swingarm or polini alu forks. It has steel ones. Bit of a bitza
whatever you had left in the parts bin job…It didn’t have a carb when I got it. I bought a 28mm Mikuni for it from fleabay a while ago but haven’t tried it yet…
Good price for the carb?…
Also it’s listed as a flatslide but the slide body has a round cap?…
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It’s a UK 1994 Tzr125rr (4hw) it was a small production number 125 model that used the frame from a 3xv Tzr250rr. It doesn’t have the belgarda Alu swingarm or polini alu forks. It has steel ones. Bit of a bitza
whatever you had left in the parts bin job…It didn’t have a carb when I got it. I bought a 28mm Mikuni for it from fleabay a while ago but haven’t tried it yet…
Good price for the carb?…
Also it’s listed as a flatslide but the slide body has a round cap?…
Different subject! I’m thinking that because it was stood so long and the water pump seal perished, should I change the main crank seals while its out? I only have a new set of soft rubber OEM ones (the genuine ones seem harder/stiffer)
I’ve changed both sides before on these lumps without splitting the cases…I need an RE flywheel puller though. I only have a kickstart model one…
I know that it’s not any kind of guarantee, but it only has 10.5k miles on the clock. I’m wondering whether to leave the originals in…
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It’s a UK 1994 Tzr125rr (4hw) it was a small production number 125 model that used the frame from a 3xv Tzr250rr. It doesn’t have the belgarda Alu swingarm or polini alu forks. It has steel ones. Bit of a bitza
whatever you had left in the parts bin job…It didn’t have a carb when I got it. I bought a 28mm Mikuni for it from fleabay a while ago but haven’t tried it yet…
Good price for the carb?…
Also it’s listed as a flatslide but the slide body has a round cap?…
@SpookDog The Dell'Orto looks good for the money but the UK TZR125R 4HW ran the TM28SS as per DTR with a few minor changes so if you have one I'd stick with that. A lot of two-stroke tuners run into problems bolting on bigger carbs as it tends to reduce low-end power without really improving the top end.
I always preferred the UK version to the Belgarda TBH, smiley face headlight makes it look identical to the V-Twin TZR250. I have a TZR125R Service Information book I downloaded for free on PDF; it's in French but maybe @Calum or someone can advise me whether it's possible to upload it onto here.
Also agree with @MadGyver ; change every seal in the engine if it's been stood for any length of time. Koyo gearbox bearings are pretty cheap from PJME and at the risk of banging on about the virtues of the Top Racing/Jasil crankshaft, a French company makes an adapter so you can run one in a DTRe engine. It's just a thin cone-shaped piece of steel which fits onto the crank taper before the DTRe flywheel, and has a slot so it can fit over the woodruff key:
To remove the DTRe flywheel I think you need a harmonic balance puller like this one:
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-cht698-46-piece-harmonic-balance-puller/
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@SpookDog If I were you I would change every seals in the engine.If it was sitting for so long don't trust them even with low miles.
Cheers guys, it’s just I only have cheap OEM (SKF & some I’ve not heard of) seals to throw at this. I am dust poor. I’ve never been able to afford dirt
Then again, they may not have the lifespan of genuine seals but they will work for as long as I need them to. (I had a set in for 20K miles in the Dtr) They can always be changed out later…Just thought I’d check the air box to carb rubber size. It fits a 28 Mikuni. No way it’d fit the dellorto. I was led to believe that my bike took a 32 dellorto, iirc. I guess not…
The 28mm I got has a different needle & tube than the dtr. Haven’t checked the valve cutaway yet, but I’m confident it’s good for the motor…
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Just whipped of the pump cover and oil has filled up in there. Hopefully past the seal!
…Edit:
Removed the clutch casing.
The gasket is perfect. I’m gonna check out the pump seal next. I can’t imagine oil getting past it but this motor might of been sitting for 10 years for all I know. There was oil in the impeller anyways…PS any tip on removing the water pump seal? She doesn’t want to move
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Cheers guys, it’s just I only have cheap OEM (SKF & some I’ve not heard of) seals to throw at this. I am dust poor. I’ve never been able to afford dirt
Then again, they may not have the lifespan of genuine seals but they will work for as long as I need them to. (I had a set in for 20K miles in the Dtr) They can always be changed out later…Just thought I’d check the air box to carb rubber size. It fits a 28 Mikuni. No way it’d fit the dellorto. I was led to believe that my bike took a 32 dellorto, iirc. I guess not…
The 28mm I got has a different needle & tube than the dtr. Haven’t checked the valve cutaway yet, but I’m confident it’s good for the motor…
@SpookDog SKF are good oil seals, and a lot of people use the £25 Yambits engine seal kit with no issues. As long as they're new they should last a fair while.
Just had a read through my TZR-R 4HW service information and the TM28SS jet sizes are:
Main #210
Emulsion tube P-2
Needle 5H38-2, 4th clip position from top
Pilot #17.5It doesn't mention power jet size or slide cutaway but the slide has a 3XV part number on Fowlers so the same as the V-Twin TZR250.
So I guess pilot jet from @markus-w 's eBay source and Allens Performance can probably order the emulsion tube and needle if you want to try them.
Ignition advance curve looks very different to the DTR as well, the 3MB is very linear in comparison. I think the 4HW is like this to make it stronger at higher RPM, like between 8-12k whereas the 3MB curve is probably meant to deliver a wider spread of power which is better suited to off-road riding. So from what I can see the 4HW is designed to rev to these kinds of speeds where a good 3MB tops out at around 10,500.
The 3-wire servo also has a 4FL part number on Fowlers so the onboard computer inside it is probably different to the 3MB servo, again to maximise efficiency at higher engine speeds I'd imagine. The PV operating at a different engine speed to the 3MB could explain the strange trough in advance between 5.5-6.5k RPM.
With all this in mind I'd definitely start with stock 4HW jetting and a new or rebuilt crankshaft. IIRC these also had a plated bore (in common with the V-twin) which manufacturers had to move towards for more efficient heat transfer into the water jacket on two-strokes in a higher state of tune (for example the parrallel twin TZR250 had steel liners whereas the RGV250 and KR1-S both ran plated bores and made a lot more power than the PT TZR250). So maybe bear this in mind as well. Not 100% sure on all this (it's been a while) so I'll have a read of A. Graham Bell later if I get time.
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@SpookDog SKF are good oil seals, and a lot of people use the £25 Yambits engine seal kit with no issues. As long as they're new they should last a fair while.
Just had a read through my TZR-R 4HW service information and the TM28SS jet sizes are:
Main #210
Emulsion tube P-2
Needle 5H38-2, 4th clip position from top
Pilot #17.5It doesn't mention power jet size or slide cutaway but the slide has a 3XV part number on Fowlers so the same as the V-Twin TZR250.
So I guess pilot jet from @markus-w 's eBay source and Allens Performance can probably order the emulsion tube and needle if you want to try them.
Ignition advance curve looks very different to the DTR as well, the 3MB is very linear in comparison. I think the 4HW is like this to make it stronger at higher RPM, like between 8-12k whereas the 3MB curve is probably meant to deliver a wider spread of power which is better suited to off-road riding. So from what I can see the 4HW is designed to rev to these kinds of speeds where a good 3MB tops out at around 10,500.
The 3-wire servo also has a 4FL part number on Fowlers so the onboard computer inside it is probably different to the 3MB servo, again to maximise efficiency at higher engine speeds I'd imagine. The PV operating at a different engine speed to the 3MB could explain the strange trough in advance between 5.5-6.5k RPM.
With all this in mind I'd definitely start with stock 4HW jetting and a new or rebuilt crankshaft. IIRC these also had a plated bore (in common with the V-twin) which manufacturers had to move towards for more efficient heat transfer into the water jacket on two-strokes in a higher state of tune (for example the parrallel twin TZR250 had steel liners whereas the RGV250 and KR1-S both ran plated bores and made a lot more power than the PT TZR250). So maybe bear this in mind as well. Not 100% sure on all this (it's been a while) so I'll have a read of A. Graham Bell later if I get time.
Thank you for some truly useful information. I take my hat off!
The carb I bought for it has a 38 on the needle or emulsion tube IIRC. The 210 & 17.5 sounds familiar as well. I’ll dig it out and check in a mo…
I’ve got a 3mb-p barrel @ head freshly re~bored to go on it. A 4fu is standard I believe. I think the reason for nicasil lining is more to do with cost of production than anything (the heat transfer is tiny and irrelevant IMO when you trade it off for ‘serviceability’). I’d personally rather have a cast iron liner. I’m planning on getting one of my 4fu barrels relined by PJME at some point when I have a spare £150. Match the porting to the CDI & power valve that are on the bike (thanks again for the info!!) Thank fux that it’s all there apart from the seat & lower fairing plastics!
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My carb is:
505 P-2 on the emulsion tube
5H 38 on the needle
1mm cutaway on the slide valve
210 main jet
17.5 pilot jet
I think I got lucky on the carb I bought
wasn’t too bad @ under £50 IIRC
Thanks again, again! That’s given me some peace of mind…PS I’ve got an harmonic balancer puller coming so I can get to and replace the crank seal on that side…
In an ideal life, I’d replace every single bearing, seal and gasket. The thing is that this is a shoestring budget. I’ll do everything I can not to make the same mistakes as I did when I built the Dt. Considering it was the first bike I’ve worked on or owned in over 25 years, I’m not gonna beat myself up…
Thing is, this isn’t a restoration. It’s a resuscitation!!
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My carb is:
505 P-2 on the emulsion tube
5H 38 on the needle
1mm cutaway on the slide valve
210 main jet
17.5 pilot jet
I think I got lucky on the carb I bought
wasn’t too bad @ under £50 IIRC
Thanks again, again! That’s given me some peace of mind…PS I’ve got an harmonic balancer puller coming so I can get to and replace the crank seal on that side…
In an ideal life, I’d replace every single bearing, seal and gasket. The thing is that this is a shoestring budget. I’ll do everything I can not to make the same mistakes as I did when I built the Dt. Considering it was the first bike I’ve worked on or owned in over 25 years, I’m not gonna beat myself up…
Thing is, this isn’t a restoration. It’s a resuscitation!!
Got the puller and got the flywheel off. Got the crank seals out, I can see nothing wrong with the bearings and there’s no movement, I don’t like the sound of them though. I’m not an expert and have nothing to compare them with. There is a regular beat/change in noise to them that I don’t like though. I’ve got a new pair of Koyo bearings that I’m gonna put in them once I’ve had the run-out checked on the crank…
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Got the puller and got the flywheel off. Got the crank seals out, I can see nothing wrong with the bearings and there’s no movement, I don’t like the sound of them though. I’m not an expert and have nothing to compare them with. There is a regular beat/change in noise to them that I don’t like though. I’ve got a new pair of Koyo bearings that I’m gonna put in them once I’ve had the run-out checked on the crank…
