Forum Corner
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Going to borrow a Dyno over Easter. See what's what. Just out if interest really.
Shiny Red is just down the road from me.
Thought I would share these vids. not to take too much away from them, just an interesting comparison and look at these claimed BHP figures.
It's a TZR4DL with a 4FU barrel/head and extensively modified. Pretty interesting results.
22.34 BHP@10147.3 rpm
11.58 FT/lb torque @10108.8 rpm
StandardModified
30.12bhp @11228rpmhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUpz7KTRspk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK7HR711OEg
Thought about a swap ages ago. I like those old 4FU TZR's, Flat top pistons and better heads, more racey, but never interested in using a Nikasil barrel on the DT. Bit unnecessary, even though they have superior heat dissipation and arguably better friction characteristics.
Interestingly, 14.3 ft/lb of Torque by their modified TZR. More than this RS. I know which one I would have.
The MK1 RS. The only one to buy. Future purchase. They never looked as good after 1997.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU279cFptWg
I'm all for the Yamaha 125's, but the MK1 RS is just better. Prefer one over a Mito.
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That's not a true mk1. The true mk1 is the futura. They are the best looking. Agree though the chesterfields are very nice.
I have a post on the 4fu barrels having owned a few of them myself. The 4FU heads actually have a restrictive combustion ring in them. Should be on this forum if you want to have a look.
The rs was claimed 26bhp out the factory. And as we know deteriorate rapidly if left unmaintained. No doubt about the stock porting work on the rotax engine. They are far superior to thay of the 4fu and reflext more like the sp barrels.
Dynos vary bhp from dyno to dyno. However I would take 30bhp tzr as a very very very well tuned bike. Someone has spent a lot of money on that one.
Ultimately I look at the facts as they are presented to me.
Aprilia rs125's are still raced in championships today. A lot of them in fact. I am yet to see a Yamaha TZR on thr track, and if I did I would put money on it being a sp not 4fu.
And I would imagine the main rival to the RS is not the tzr but the tz instead. And the tz is an incredible bike! The 250's claim around 65bhp! And I know a chap who has one who claims they are a little less but still savage!
Ultimately what evidence do I have. I am going on what I believe in having stripped both engines down. Rebuilt botb and tuned both. I have GoPro footage of my tzr belgarda engine against an Aprilia rs125 that my brother bought from a breakers yard.
Fair enougg my tzr engine was in a dt. But it was portee witb a nice pipe and zeeltronic ignition system. It didn't lose by a hair, I got thrashed.
So I have experienced both ends of the spectrum. I personally have come to realise perhaps the road bike engines are not the best for tuning. But they are still cracking bikes and nothing takss thay away from them.
Would like to see an sp in the flesh and compare that to an rs. But ultimately the availability of an rs is what attracts me thr most. Knowing parts are accessible and tuning is there. The sp is a beast, but if that block goes then it's bye bye bike!
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Do you mean the Aprilia AF1? I supppose it is the MK1. Forgot about that actually. But it's not in the RS series. The RS replaced the AF1. The Futura is the Series 3 AF1. They look pretty tasty from about 1991 onwards.
TZR was never a competition design, that's the difference between them. Rotax does win. An RS has a much nicer chassis to start with.
TZs are cool. 00's TZ125s are good for 42+bhp@75kg dry, It's a pure race bike. RSGP vs TZ, That's a good question.
TZ ftw.
A 2003 'Road Race' spec TZ250 was rated at 93PS@102kg dry weight from Yamaha. Mad! 90+bhp. Not far off a the YZR GP factory bike at the time
TZRR vs RS I can't say which one is a better street bike, but on the track I'd pick a Rotax.
Tuning potential is there in both engines, but the Rotax is a superior design for output already.
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But it's not like Yamaha don't know how to build savage engines. Your tz example is prime case of that.
I would say the futura is the genesis rs. Even though not called an rs. Its engine, frame and other components are the same. But I know what you are saying.
If I could buy a crisp mk1 or futura I would. But they are few and far between. Plus the later rs models, whilst severely down on power, are better spec. Power can be restored.
Yammy is a good manufacturers. Even Aprilias are high spec. For me, if we are going ftw stylie, has to be Honda. But I am a Honda fan boy. I have see first hand Hondas reliability and production. The Ultimate Honda RS125 yes sirie please!
And a good point raised to me the other day. Okay the Honda Civic EP3 type r. I love them. Beautiful machines, not as fast as my starlet mind you. I was in a 150'000 mile ep3 being thrashed within an inch of its life. I shit you not. No exaggeration, the person I was with doesn't care about breaking things. Maxed out in 4th he dropped it into 3rd. And you could feel the driveshafts snap back from the compression. The car is still running.
Hats bloody of to the lads in Swindon assembling those cars. Keep up the good work as the builds of Hondas are insane. Love Japanese quality standards!
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Agreed, Honda ran the RS125 to a 130mph in a test. Honda make engines!
Been around the older B series Honda's, EG6 and DC2s. Man knew a DC2 Type R that was running to nearly 12k! The old body shells are proper wafer thin, I'm sure those bread van' EP3s are better quality over all, but damn, mechanically, those older DOHC B18s are incredible. Honda engines can go moon miles, with a healthy thirst for oil, a bit like Wankels, they remind me of a 2stroke, NA weapons!
Hats off to the Japanese, excellent engineering and just little racers out the box. I proper rate Honda's to.
I like Japanese stuff in general, studying the language too, good fun. I never feel a true love for Japanese machines. They have less character than European stuff, never feel as special. I'm into to industrial design so I'm always thinking the feeling and statement of objects. Maybe they work too well?. I digress, love machines, love em all.
I need a late 1980's Husqvarna WR and I'll be sorted. And a Japanese car to actually get to work no questions asked.
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See I disagree. I think European machines have nothing to be desired for. The Germans invented the wankel engine. Saw no profit in it so left it. But the Japs saw the potential. Sure it mixes oil like a two strokw. And it has one power cycle to every rotation, like a two stroke. But they also make serious power like a two stroke. What innovative do the Europeans do that the Japs didn't do first, and cheaper. Look at late 80's Mercedes introducing features into their luxury models. Then look at what Honda and toyota introduced to their boggo models a few years later for cheap.
Again a good example is subaru with the boxer engine. While they may be fuel consumptious and low on power. They are different than your conventional european design.
And of course wonders like hondas vtec.
There are only a few European manufactures that I rate. Volvo, and SAAB.
You should have a look at Saabs innovative svc engine. 1.6 was pushong 220 bhp and saab claimed it would easily make 300 with still very good mpgs. The Americans bought saab and scrapped the svc. But I guarantee if that was a jap design or sold to the Japs they would have released it. Even if it flopped lol.
Audi are raving over their new TFSI models. Turbo supercharge cars. Their flagships. But oh wait, Didn't Nissan already do this, 30 years ago...to their Nissan Micra!
Japs all the way.
I would love to learn their language. Is it hard?
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Oh and Honda lmao. Have you seen their 5 cylinder GP bike that dominated the series. Their four stroke out raced all the other two strokes on the track!
This was back when Honda, or rather the Japanese, didn't have the quality controls they have in place now!
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You have to admire the Japanese tenacity, mainly there ascendency as an Industrial super power during the 1960s. They have pretty much just copied us folks in the Northern hemisphere for years, but yeah, they have made technology work for them, and subsequently the rest of the world.
Japan sacrificed alot to be a competitive world power, there products innovated the cheaper market, and they dominated for years. Still do I think.
Think the Germans pioneered the 2 cycle engine 30s to 1950s, used it for a bit.. Sachs built engines. Nice product made was the now quite famous Messerschmitt KR200. But euro cars and bikes dropped the 2stroke and it's design for the Japanese to lap up and invest into. And conquer massively.
Haha, Japanese technology all the way, certainly more willing to actually produce the wacky and no conformist solutions. Nissan's innovation history is epic tbf.
Japanese is quite hard, I'm just reading and writing it so far, It's simple, but broad with lots of modifying elements in speech and description. It's so different, it's refreshing and just pushes my curiosity.
Try it. Helps out watching all the Best Motoring - Hot Version and Option NSTC stuff
That Honda GP bike is beast. New discovery
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Yeah they are certainly easier to make, and slightly better road race performance.
Found this picture I took of my DT, 2 days after getting it on the road. Deep summer time in the woods, never been better.
The rust is now an issue on my bike. Think she will be sorned off this year and boxed up.
A full rebuild will take me a long time around studying. Got some new paint scheme ideas for it. And a special top end.
1989 YZWR 250 , Blue on White is dope. Seriously want to design my DT around this brute.
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Yamaha DT200R Swingarm! If you're not sure just compare the welds to the steel 125R version. It's legit.
Alloy part of the same dimensions as the steel DT125R version. Straight swap. saves some much needed Kg's.
Pricey as fuck, this can't go to waste, someone snatch it up and get building with it!
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@Calum , beg, borrow, steal and have both! haha. What were your plans for a Swingarm swap? I drew a blank over something wide enough for RS tread.
Got thinking about the KTM LC2 125 1991-1999?? They are elusive. European market.
Could of bought one of these when I was 17 looking for DT's, but I didn't know what they were at the time properly and was dubious about finding parts. Should of got one though!
That's my biggest gripe with the DT, A rubbish seat postion, height and reach if your over 6ft. I end up goon riding it and I look ridiculous. Haha such a hoot though.
The best thing about this bike is that it is indeed a KTM chassis with much better components ie, Suspension and Geometry, They are still pretty little, but has nicer cockpit area and feels much like a early 1990s SX/EXC does.
With a early DT125R based engine.. What a 125!
Look familiar ?
Not sure what size Dell'oto either. May of been 28s.
Can't find much on these LC2 Minarelli lumps.
Yeah and no, FMF never made pipes for this engine. I only ever gathered people mount SX/EXC aftermarket or OEM systems onto these, don't know why. Is there much benefit without a KTM barrel? Who knows, maybe the gas flow characteristics, Fluid dynamic mathematics cross over for a 3MB. Who knows.
If you study the KTM LC2 exhaust, it's very much just a re angled' DEP expansion design.
Interesting bike.
That could be an interesting pipe to try.
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(FAKE) YAMAHA TZR125RR 4DL Y-2 SP Cylinder
It's a shame,the real ones are really not just a 'straight swap' for your DT or other 4DL. Different crank,crankcase,powervalve,piston and cylinder head were used for the TZR125SP. Mega bike, the engines were really quite different to produce that magic 30+bhp.
A custom exhaust on this would be a must. These barrels are awesome.
Yamaha produced 500 SPs, around 150 went straight to the track and the rest were Street models. There can't be many unmolested versions left.
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Honestly, they are absolutely worthless!
The porting is no better than this:
http://mickabbeytuning.co.uk/Cyl4.jpglink no longer workshttp://mickabbeytuning.co.uk/Greg1.jpglink no longer worksThe only difference is these barrels are common as much. Cheap as chips. Further tunable.
Also I think you can bolt those belgardas barrels on unless I am mistaken. Or at least you can put a 3mb on a belgarda crankcase.
No those barrels are not worth it. It won't work unless you have the head and powervalve and I enquired about fabricating one and it's a no go.
Nice but way too overpriced. Should be bought and displayed in a museum.
Nice spot though
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@Calum Rotax engines are just better true. Have you ever ran a normal 3MB head on the 3MB-P barrel? The TZR4DL head had a different squish. I can't find one.
SP barrel not a straight swap unfortunately
The SP transfers are different, you could always modify a 4DL bottom end, but it's pointless without SP powervalve and crank. Not likely to find those at all. Need a complete SP engine. The 4DL-1, and 3 versions are the common lumps with standard internals and 3MB00-P top end.
It's a shame these Yamaha 125's really don't tune very well. Cant seek power with them.
